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030 - Maceo Jourdan (Canexxia) On Bringing Hospital Quality Healthcare into the Home

Maceo Jourdan is founder of Canexxia. According to his vision: The Future of Healthcare is at Home. Canexxia is building a global network to deliver the best care possible without ever leaving your house.



Show Transcription (auto-generated)
Samandar Ravshanov 0:00

Hey, The misfits. The rebels. The troublemakers. The round pegs in the square holes. The ones who see things differently. They're not fond of rules, and they have no respect for the status quo.

You can quote them, disagree with them, glorify or vilify them. About the only thing you can't do is ignore them. Because they change things. They push the human race forward. And while some may see them as a crazy ones, we see genius. Welcome to Triz Show hosted by Samandar Ravshanov. Please briefly introduce yourself to our audience, and then we move on.

Maceo Jourdan 0:57
I'm really glad to be here. Thanks for having me. So I got started as an entrepreneur, when I was a kid, I was delivering newspapers and the kinds of things that kids back then did, and I'll, I'll take myself appropriately in a second. But it was really by by accident. So I was delivering papers, I saw that some ladies in the townhouse townhouse complex had these bird feeders, so I made my own and, you know, offered it as a free trial. Of course, we didn't call it that back then one of my customers, she loved it. And you know, my first recurring revenue business was born. Because you know, you had to refill the thing. But most importantly, what I realized in that moment was, if I could find the buyers first, then everything else in business would take care of itself. And I don't know why my eight or nine year old brain thought that, but it did. And so that's really guided me. throughout my entire career, I've always looked for the buyers first today, of course, we would call that bottom up thinking, you know, that's what got me into hedge fund trading into algorithmic trading, I was designing computerized trading programs in early sort of crude AI for hedge funds in the early 2000s. And then eventually got me into digital marketing as a way to again find the buyer. So in the digital world unfolded, what I immediately saw was a better addressable markets. Right? So any business, the real problem is, how much does it cost to reach your customer? And then how many of those customers are there? Right? If if you wanted to boil VC down to like, really two key elements, I think it would be that. And so you want to back the companies that have you either really inexpensive ways to reach a whole lot of people to make small purchases, or relatively inexpensive ways to reach smaller pockets of people that have super high purchase habits. And so that's what eventually led me into healthcare. It's, you know, $3 trillion industry, if you look at, if you look at it from a consumer standpoint, is more of like a per purchase or average order value, you're talking in the 10s of 1000s of dollars per person. And so I think, you know, obviously, we've got some inefficiencies in that. But ultimately, from business standpoint, that's really the opportunity that I see in healthcare, and also what drew me to it.

Samandar Ravshanov 3:25
Yeah, so the thing that you mentioned that regarding starting from a cast customers, is also one of the popular methods used by Amazon's working but backwards methods. So you start with a customer draft, the press release, sort of and, and then you evaluate the opportunity is, is it compelling enough? And or should it be like, should we actually build it? Does it really matter to build it right? And then you move to the next stage, which is discovering the solutions and getting the stakeholder approval. So and then you build this, the product roadmap, and then you and then the creating back locks and assigning tasks, which is basically most of us do the weisswurst.

We start from solution. And then we try to find the product market fit for it's just crazy. So I think starting from the backwards is actually the Yeah, that's correct strategy.

Maceo Jourdan 4:26
All right. Well, the funny thing about that is you

I've been doing I've been doing that since the mid 90s. And it came about because I started in direct response advertising.

You know, we call it direct to consumer today. But the key to any direct response or direct to consumer campaign success, is figuring out all those elements like Who are these people? What are they already buying? What's funny about this is it actually used to be a lot easier. There was this thing in a library

Which for people who don't know, a library is this big building where they have lots of books.

And I mean, I was going to libraries early enough that everything was on the Dewey Decimal System. I told you, I would date myself. Anyway, there's this book called The srbs, the standard rate and data service. And it was a physical book that was filled with data cards of various kinds of things. So newsletters, publications, and they would give you all sorts of information, how many customers, they had a bit on their demographics, and most importantly, how much they spent, and how recent that expenditure was. And so really, you know, coming from that world, it's been ingrained at a DNA level. I mean, I, I literally can't start a project without first doing a deep dive into the customer, like, what's their actual, we call it a day in the life? So what is that person experience on a day to day basis? And most importantly, what problems do they have? But what problems do they have from an experiential and an emotional standpoint? Right, what frustrates them? And I think, you know, as I've, as I've dealt, especially with technology, and how frustrating that can be, you know, my, my fellow developers would would be very well served by listening for people complaining in the bar, and focusing on that, like, what major issues Did somebody have during that day? And then just figure out, Okay, how many people have the same experience? How bad is it? Is it something that affects the entire enterprise? Which, of course would be, you know, an enterprise level sales is something that's more, you know, for a particular pocket of developers. Now, when you can do that, I mean, it really the sky's the limit.

Exactly, exactly. So I think the thing that you mentioned at regarding the what frustrates the customer the most, whether you solving the hair on fire problem, right. So it's not just about finding the problem to solve, it's about the finding the the hair on fire problem, right, some something that really, really matters to solve.

Alright, and so I, of course, to get out, I'll do it myself. So my version of Crossing the Chasm, which was, by the way, informed from you know, World War Two, so forgive me, it's the bleeding from the neck problem, right. So the reason why I like that, rather than the hair on fire is I can, I can put your out your hair with a glass of water, and you're going to be fine, it's going to grow back. But if you're bleeding from the neck, you are going to die.

And I know that sounds horrid, and it sounds graphic, but it's the metaphor that's important. Right? So when you, when you focus on something that is the equivalent to death, right, it could be the death of a project, it could be the death of particular division in a corporation. It's far more meaningful. But I think it also gives us as entrepreneurs a better context to come from, where we can speak to, you know, the the problem, I think more effectively, because if I'm coming to you, and forgive me to the Monday comm team, if I'm coming to you a pitching Monday calm, you know, my first question, if I was a CEO would be okay, well, how's that any better than a piece of paper? You know, can't we can't we put sticky notes on the wall? You know, so it's, in less Monday, comm can relate it to something so that I, as this hypothetical CEO can think, Wow, we're dead. If we don't change this, you lose a certain power in your presentation. Now, the byproduct of this is, of course, fewer projects will get made. Now we could, you know, we could discuss that ad nauseum. I think, you know, Peter teal has talked about this extensively is that, you know, we've had a tendency to create technology that may have been birthed out of more the hair on fire, whereas the Yeah, that's something that we can solve. And there are enough customers that we can make a bunch of money, we can get kind of that ladder of VC equity, where we've got a great enterprise value. But I think what the authors of Crossing the Chasm were getting at was that would venture can do and this is what I love about entrepreneurship. And what literally gets me out of bed and makes it really tough to fall asleep, is that when we start solving these problems at that level, that's where we wind up seriously moving the world forward. Rather than you know, getting like Peter teal says 140 characters. It's like, Hey, dude, I want Star Trek. I want the transporter man. I want faster than light travel, I want the flying car. And we're just not going to get there. I think with the with half measures, is again, that's that's what left me, you know, led me into healthcare. You know, we've got 61 million baby boomers that are going to be over 70 and 2030. They're gonna have multiple chronic conditions. And to you know, again, make it real. My mother recently passed away. We had her at home and she encountered a health care system.

Um, that was not equipped to care for chronic conditions. And so you know what, what we had were silos of information, which that would be the hair on fire apart, right? I can build a layer of data sharing, and it's going to solve that. But ultimately, you've got to back up from, you know, the crisis, which was my mom in a hospital bed, 96 pounds getting multiple biopsies on her lung, which introduced pneumonia, which eventually killed her. Right. So it was a medical mistake that caused her death, completely preventable. Yes, the hair on fire would be, hey, let's put a data layer on top of that. So that when the the cancer doctor is looking at her chart, he sees a picture of her records. When I when I finally did a post mortem, if you'll pardon the pun, was the cancer doctor was seeing a paper version of what was going on. And he was seeing an image of the problem, right? So the the image of what was it they thought was in her lung? What he didn't see was her. So he didn't really it didn't really register on him, that she was 96 pounds malnourished, she was going to be weak, immune compromised. So have you seen that he would have obviously said, Okay, let's hold off on that. Let's give the woman a sandwich, right? Let's get your weight up. Let's get her immune system built up. Okay. So again, hair on fire would be the data layer? Well, my point is, wait, let's back up nine months to when she first started losing weight. And let's deal with the problem there. And then I would say, Well, wait a minute. What about you know, the prior two years of having home health care workers come into the home? What about that? Now, of course, you could say, well, let's put a data layer on top of that. Let's see. Yeah. But we're also talking about humans bringing in care, right, so the, the phrase of garbage in garbage out starts to apply. It's like, if we're only focused on data, what we miss is it, there's no real algorithm for 20 years of experience, 13 years of experience. So bringing a nurse into that environment where he or she can meet with a patient or he can meet with a patient and gather that data into our, you know, our human computer, and then interface with the abstracted layer. That's when healthcare is going to make a quantum leap. And right now, you know, see what VCs taking more of a top down approach where they're looking at, you know, what are all the interconnection problems, rather than a bottom up approach, which is the patient and the nurse facilitating that interaction? augmenting it with your practical things? Like how do you get to the nurse, the nurse to the patient, or the patient to the nurse, and building from there. So admittedly, you know, my, my view of healthcare is defined by my bottom up training and kind of DNA but also informed by having cared for somebody through a you know, catastrophic illness and seeing where some of the the errors lay.

Samandar Ravshanov 13:08
So there is a strong personal reason of why I started this company. So I was actually up to ask this question, why you do what you do, but you already answered this.

Maceo Jourdan 13:20
So and, yeah, and so when, when, when I see this, startups, that starts, from the personal reasons, is actually the ones who are the most passionate about their, what they do. And especially as you describe this, this painted picture clearly, for me, it's not just about the hair on fire, because hair on fire is talking about is emphasizing the urgency of the problem. But when you're describing is more like maybe like a long term problem, right? So the problem that exists that can

Samandar Ravshanov 13:59
if you don't solve this, we might die, this type of problem. So I think that's really good picture.

Maceo Jourdan 14:07
You know, give you an example of that, by way of, of course, the story. I worked with a gentleman named Chet Holmes years ago, and he was really teaching me how to, you know, conduct enterprise sales. And his theory was going from the top, you know, CEO, CFO, coo CTO, because when when something comes from that level down, it tends to get better adoption. You're not at the mercy of silos and kind of politics, especially in large enterprise. But it was more that his, his point was, if a if an executive isn't aware of how bad a problem is, with all of the decisions that they have to make, the easier heuristic is to say no. So this is, you know, a little bit of sales coaching. if you will. It looks like our brains are designed to say no, right? Because the danger is in saying yes. Right. So like, How many? How many times? Have we gotten in trouble saying yes, versus saying no. It's like, hey, do you want to go to the party? No. Okay, and everybody gets a rest. And it's like, wow, dodged a bullet there. So it's like, as we've developed as humans, we've realized, well, I kind of stay out of trouble when I say no. And then when you layer money on top of that, this is what I learned from trading on a hedge fund trading this for a long time, is that when you put money into the mix, all bets are off, right? The the way our brains react to that is very defensively. And so you're really when we're, we're talking about how do we sell things? How do we get products out into the world? The reason why I've studied persuasion and sales so deliberately, is that it's far more effective to understand some of some of those techniques, because it makes you more aware of, you know, how humans behave. And again, I'll relate that directly to healthcare. One of the biggest problems that we have with this baby boomer population, is that, you know, they, especially the men, so these are people coming out of World War Two, that was a much different world, man. I mean, look, Hitler just stomped all of the European continent. All of the infrastructure was basically destroyed. It's and plus you had, you know, a very militaristic mindset, right? So the men from that era, we're very much like, you know, oh, we just soldier on and Okay, I just lost my leg, tape it up. And you know, we got to storm the hill. Well, that person is not going to look for medical care. If the doctor says, oh, how you doing? And you know, he just like fainted, getting up from his bed that day, fell down five times. He's like, Oh, I'm doing pretty good. Yeah. And then the women from that era, you know, they had a much different mindset, it was, you know, far less about what I can do and more, you know, how can I support the home? And how can I support my husband? And so they have a similar thing, where it's like, well, I don't, I don't want my kids to think that I'm weak, because I need to support them. I don't want my husband to think I'm weak, because I want to support him. And so you get a similar dynamic there. And so I had to learn these these persuasion techniques, frankly, just to get my mom to tell me what was going on, you know, I had to sell her on, you know, the property trician to try and get her weight up or take her medication. I mean, I had to sell this woman for six months to get a better mattress. How crazy is that? And even then, I finally got her to buy a purple mattress. And I know, you know, there's a bunch of them out there. I don't know why she chose the purple. The first one I chose for her was tufton needle, mostly because of the price, right? She again, I realize she came from the Depression era. So all that said is in, in that world, if you don't understand the way people's psychology reacts in the environment, you're less effective. So what I would encourage, especially founders to think about is, you know, what are what are the CEOs or the founders or whoever you're selling to? What are they going through, you know, what other concerns Do they have, and then attempt to relate your product to it. Now, by doing that exercise, you're going to figure out very quickly, if you have a surface connection, or if you have an actual connection, right? So that would be you're getting into the heuristic of Okay, do I have a hair on fire? Is it bleeding from the neck, you know, there are literal ways that you can take your, your stuff, whatever you've created out there into the world and test to see how close you are to solving you know, what might be true bleeding from the neck. Plus, by using some of these techniques, you're going to uncover a lot it's going to force you to ask questions versus you know, say things to people it's gonna just dynamically change the way your your product interacts with you the way your product interacts with the person in the way of course you are relating both

Samandar Ravshanov 19:07
so yeah, at the end of the day, like the reason like the way we think the way we reason not the same way the customers reasoning, right, so they reason can be completely different. And so one of the things that's really excites me this framework, maybe familiar is already is a jobs to be done framework where you look at this, the customers perspective, from from their perspective, what why are they using this product? I mean, they are reason not because you think it's needed, not because because of its functionality or the benefit that using it brings, but they have some, they really are their own reasons, the particular outcome that they want to get so and it may not be directly from your product, but using your product. It might bring this to this outcome. So yeah,

Maceo Jourdan 20:05
that's funny. I say this bit jokingly, although I always marvel at this so hard, the Harvard professors that came out with that book. When I first started, I laughed a little bit, because in the direct response world, like we've been doing that since the 70s, but the way that is presented like, oh, here's this breakthrough idea, which I laugh about the Harvard guy. I mean, I was I was accepted to MIT, I didn't go, you know, I've got something, I definitely have a hard streak against, you know, positions of authority. And, unfortunately, the way I made I don't automatically give people you know, some sort of credence because of their position. So take what I'm saying with a grain of salt. It's probably not as bad as that. But I think, I think from a practical standpoint, where the Harvard guys go wrong in their book, is that they're, they're still coming at it from that abstracted layer. You know, I say, from the the academic layer. So if an entrepreneur really wants to wrap their minds around this, you can study some of the early copywriters, so the Collier letter book, you can get it on Amazon, you know that that was one of the greatest copywriters ever. So you have to understand that in in the 1910s 1920s. And 1930s, people sold things through the mail, right, they would mail you a letter, and get money from you, well, until you actually try that, you really don't understand how difficult it was. And so I was really blessed by starting with that, right. So I started selling in print, and also to telemarketing and door to door sales, you know, we, we were very poor growing up, my mom worked three jobs to keep us out of the ghetto, which he was successful with. But if I wanted anything, like I had to go earn the money, which also was a blessing, because, you know, she, my mom couldn't get that to me. But it forced me to understand, you know, how to keep my costs low, right? If I wanted a bike, and you know, I wasn't making enough money for my effort, I had to figure out a way to optimize that. Well, that's the beauty of selling something at a distance, is it forces you to discover these things, I mean, people are not just going to sit down and read a sales letter, right? you've, you've got to achieve a level of engagement and relevancy that far surpasses most, I think most things that people think about. So what I would encourage people to do is to take the jobs theory, because the framework is decent. But then from a practical standpoint, go the next step. And I literally mean physical mail, like go get, go get a stamp in an envelope, and attempt to mail something to somebody in order to get them to call you. And I'm not even saying get them to send you money. Because I've done that I've mailed stuff to people and had them send me very large checks. But it took probably seven or eight years of practice to do that. What you're going to find by going through that, you know, practical exercise is that market, in fact, one of my earliest successes was in healthcare, so I can I got into healthcare almost by accident, I started working with doctors, probably 10 years ago now, where, you know, we would bring some of these concepts into their office and enable them to bring more patients in, you know, we, of course, taking the the pain metaphor, literally would start with your back pain, knee pain, something like that. But you know, we would teach these doctors not only how to draw more patients in their office, we would then have to teach them how to use the insurance schemes to

legally Of course, but to generate more revenue, right, where they, they were advocating for their patients in a way that would provide a better outcome, not just more revenue for the doctor. And so there's this recent move to use a value based care by Medicare is a great thing, because now they're forcing doctors in hospitals, you know, to get positive outcomes, which by the way, most people are shocked at, you know, prior to, you know, call it seven years ago, hospitals literally had no metric for outcome. It was all about, you would walk in, you'd get a diagnosis, they put a code on you, that code would then unlock all kinds of money from Medicare or BlueCross, BlueShield, or wherever, you know, wherever your insurance was. And the doctors and nurses would dutifully go about providing, you know, whatever those codes told them to do. But nobody was measuring where people getting healthier. Are they being readmitted to the hospital? Are they getting infections until today, and so the the most recent head of CMS is just a beautiful person who is completely focused on positive outcomes for patients to the point where she actually instituted like an Amazon style rating system. So providers now have a star rating and if your star rating goes too low, Medicare will actually start taking money from you. So there's a lot going on in healthcare for like why now. It's like this is such a major upheaval to this market, because it forces healthcare to be to look more like a consumer company, which it it's, it always should have been, like, we never should have had a system that was focused on the provider, it should have been focused on the patient like, hey, how do you feel? That's a subjective matter measure? Great. What are your blood blood tests? Say? Can we get those two to match up? You know, how is the patient subjective? Do I feel good, you know, either informing or even impacting their blood test, like when you look at epi genetics, and some of the ways we understand our genetic code actually reacts to how we say we feel or our mood, you know, not getting into some of the more esoteric things, but the things that we can actually prove it's, it's actually mind boggling what we're going to be able to do. But my greatest fear is that it's going to get overrun by the incumbents with billions and billions of dollars of infrastructure. That, quite frankly, we probably don't need right there, there's a lot of aspects of healthcare that we could do away with. My position is I don't think they're going to do it on their own. You know, I think like most venture opportunities, it's something that's going to have to come from the outside. And I think, if anything, what I hope to do a connection, if I had like, what would be my my lowest form of when it would be that through our injection into healthcare, we force the system to wake up and realize that they just need to put everything into sunk costs, that doesn't focus on on positive patient outcomes, and then make the pivot to completely focus on the outcome for the patient. If they say that they're not feeling well, great, let's keep providing them care until they do. And, of course, what I'm really after is completely taking over healthcare. I mean, I want to see connection in the next 10 years to be the largest health care provider in America. And then in the next 20 on the face of the planet, we are literally going to take over healthcare.

Samandar Ravshanov 26:57
So I see this the flow of the conversation and the all the questions I wanted to ask you literally answering even before I am asking. It's like, you know, the the like, good salesman, blocks, the the blocks, the objections. And the great salesman, I mean, blocks objection is a pure, great salesman blocks objects, even before they occur. The same way, like you asked me this questions, before I even I asked. All right, thank you appreciate the compliment. It means a lot. So I'm interested about this. You told about the way that the healthcare is changing. And now say, this reminds me that Charlie Munger is the the mental model regarding the incentivization. So now is a properly incentivizing the healthcare people to really care that their patients so if they do wrong, but it will be measured, as you stated, so what can be measured, it can be managed, basically, right? So they measure properly, then can let's say can incentivize, and they can descend, incentivize if they doing something wrong, basically. So, yeah, that's great.

Maceo Jourdan 28:20
I think one of the beautiful things that will come out of this is it'll, it'll force healthcare providers to innovate, right? Because the main argument against this, which I completely understand, has to do with the patient, right? So again, take my mom as the example she was, she was like the worst patient for doctors, because she was, she was not in compliance, right? That's sort of the technical term for it. You know, those? Are you taking your pills? Are you doing your therapy? Well, my point, again, is, from a venture standpoint, we would look at that and say, Well, hey, let's just figure it out, like how do we incentivize them? Or how do we make it you know, the gamification, so one of the products we're developing is, you know, a product, we can put it in a person's home. It's a pad, and it connects via Bluetooth to their phone, which of course, can then connect to their TV. And so we are literally creating a game for our clients to participate in. But that sort of magic pad gives us a massive amount of data we can, we can not only measure their weight, we can measure if they've got a force differential between one leg versus the other. So we can literally see where imbalances are in a person's body as they're moving, which means we can predict how someone strength is progressing. We can predict if someone's at a risk for a fall. One of the products we have in development is a wearable, it actually goes in your shoes. It's a thin films, he can't even tell it to there. We can also put it into an orthotic. So if somebody needs that which I actually wear orthotics, which is how I thought of that. It will provide feedback as they're walking. So what I imagine is a day You know, again, going back to Star Trek, it's like I imagine a day where somebody gets out of bed, they put their feet on one of our pads. And it literally registers whether or not they've got a problem. And not that we need to know that. But then instead of Alexa, just you know, doing mundane things like playing music and turning off the lights, a device on their, on their table will say, Hey, Mr. Jordan, which is me, you know, it looks like you're having a little bit of trouble with your left knee. Why don't we do some stretches? Here? I mean, it's like, that's augmented reality. augmented reality is not, you know, looking around the world, in capturing Pokemon. It's literally having something right there, which has everything it needs. It's because there are privacy issues, right, which I can fully appreciate. It's completely self contained, that doesn't need to communicate with us. It's not designed to communicate with us. But it's designed to understand what the individual needs in that moment. Then, as Mr. Jordan gets up, he's like, Okay, I'm gonna do some quick stretches. Please, I'm still standing on the pad is giving me feedback? Oh, you know what? It seems like, you know, you're having a little bit of trouble with your left hip, is that right? It's like, yeah, you know, it's bothering me again. Well, look,

I'm in the privacy of my own home. I'm not I don't have all of the stigma that comes with you know, I'm not a man, if I don't, you know, if I say I'm weak, right. So it again, it's the day in the life of the customer, is what I'm saying is when you understand, all the way down to, you know, these baby boomers grew up in World War Two, you know, all of all of that that already talked about, you can begin to design products that speak on such a low level, that when the person experiences it, they simply want it. Right. So then when one of my buddies is talking about a CIP, it's like, you got to get this thing I got, but what is it? Oh, it's this pad from connects, you can actually was that look, you know, here's the URL, just go there and get it? Well, so then that person doesn't need to have a massive explanation, they're going to get out of bed, they're going to put their feet on the pad, the little device is going to say, Oh, Mr. Jones, you know, it looks like you're having problems, you know that with your left hip, well, then Mr. Jones, his left hip gets better, their life gets better. And if they continue to have problems, of course, you know, they can choose with a single press of a button to share that information with their provider, someone will come out to their home, so they don't have to, you know, sit in the office and be embarrassed, because like all here I am sick and broken, then everybody in the world knows I'm going to the doctor. It's like no somebody comes into your home, they can provide an exam, they can access the data from the device right there. And they can see what's going on. Right? So you've got this system, which takes into account all of the concerns of the patient, and the development and the ideation comes from that bottom up. Right? So it's not about how do we make this easier for healthcare? How do we make it easier for the insurance? It's like, Look, you guys have billions of dollars, enough of that, right? How do we make this a seamless, easy interaction for a patient that's so enjoyable, they would seriously miss it, if it were gone. Because truth be told, if you took people's phones away, you took away Facebook and Twitter, and all this crap that we're surrounded with, we'd be over it in like a month, if that maybe a couple of weeks. So I'm talking about creating products that literally integrate with somebody's life to the point where they can't do without them. And I think when we take healthcare from that standpoint, we are truly going to reach, you know, levels of advancements and outcomes that are unthinkable today. Yes, so I think, what do you describe it? To me right now, regarding this, the whole health scare, and the way it will can integrate with through augmented reality. And so and he also told about the psychological reasons of why as they will use it, so one of the questions I often ask from the founders is, what's the most essential, but non obvious need you have protocol fulfill? In other words, what emotions impressions and psychological impact your selling? So and I see that that's the way you describe the baby boomers that they don't like even even they have this heart. Like even the we see the problem, but they don't see it as serious because they grew grew up in this environment, where they have to be strong as visitors, they don't have to expose the weakness etc, etc. So, and when you bring this technology, and when you when you get rid of the person who is advising I mean the, like, the question of how to say, so, if, if the advisor is a technology, then the if there's no person between them. So between this patient and technology, it will be like completely automated in a way that zero privacy will be 100%. insured, then they might, you know, tell right about their health conditions. So I mean, how do you think about this? Like? Yeah, well, I'm such a, I'm such a believer in freedom. And its ability to actually unlock transparency, that I would go so far as to say

it the default would be no data transfer between the local device and a remote anything without explicit opt in, right, and probably multiple opt ins, even to the point because somebody is going to ask, Well, you know, what about in critical conditions? And I would say, look, we've got to have enough courage to say yes, even to that, now, because we're heartless, not because like all some people die, it's rather to provide that unlimited freedom. And I think what people will be shocked by is that when we believe in people that much, and we give people that much freedom and autonomy, what we'll get in return is trust. I mean, look, we talk about it all the time, we talk about how vulnerability and transparency improves relationships. But then when I see how especially technology interacts with that, there really is no trust. I mean, just think about Facebook's Terms of Service. It's like there's so much buried in there about what they can do with your data, that when people find out about it, they're shocked. You know, so it's like, okay, that's not the reaction we want. We what we want is someone to literally have the freedom to stroke out on their floor and die without anybody knowing, let's say, for three days, right, so this person doesn't move for three days, our system won't go into panic mode as the default. And of course, most people will say, my sales a monster What? Well, I My point is, by giving people that much freedom, what you will get in return is far more trust, which means what they're probably going to do is share even more. And I would again point to our personal interactions with teams and management styles. The more transparency we get, the more vulnerable we get, the more trust we get. And I think what healthcare has done, especially over the last 18 months, is destroyed a lot of the trust. So again, bottom up, when you talk to a baby boomer, especially if you get a couple drinks in them, what they're going to tell you is something like this, you know, when I go to my doctor, I really don't feel like he listens to me. Well, you know, you can take that on the surface level, what I have discovered they're saying is, they don't feel like their doctor really cares about their condition. Right? It's that simple. They don't care enough to ask questions, they don't care enough to just sit and listen to somebody talk for 20 or 30 minutes. Of course, the doctors responses, well, we're busy, and we've got this and we've got that concern. Again, it's like it's not all about you healthcare, it's about the patient. So I think we can use some of the augmented reality to take care of some of the legitimate concerns where you've only got one doctor, at 24 hours a day, you obviously can't sit and talk to somebody for an hour and be their friend, you know, you've got to be, you've got to be focused, I'm saying, look, we can manage all of that, like that's our, that's our purpose in venture, our purpose and ventures to take these impossible intractable problems and fix them. But what we've been doing is, you know, band dating them over spackling them over, instead of really digging in and figuring it out. So I think that at the core of it, it is providing people that freedom, and, and getting the reciprocal trust in return to where we will have more access to data, we will have somebody who will, you know, be willing to put you know, their, their devices in their shoes, or we can track them walking. And, you know, if we detect, you know, that they haven't eaten, you know, for five or six hours, and their gait profile fits a certain protocol that we is rolling out to their house, because we know in the next 45 minutes, they're going to fall down and maybe hit their head. So that's the level of trust that I want. Right? What I want is an environment that is that has people so trusting of it, that they're willing to give us that level of interaction with them. So looking at it in the reverse more from a trust standpoint, rather than Well, you know, we need to do this for them and people aren't going to be compliance, you know, that sort of tyrannical view of things. will work yes, you will get what you want done, done. But I think what we've learned over the last 18 months is that people don't really like that, you know, and we can see the alternative, like if you give people the freedom, and I'll go where, where it's controversial if you give people the freedom to wear a mask or not, what you find is they wear masks more often. Oh, you know, big shock. It's like, but if you mandate and you say, No, you're gonna wear a mask, or we're gonna do this and that and the other. It's like, Well hold on a minute. Like, why don't we just give people the choice, and we and implore them to say, hey, look, it's really going to be better. You know, it's, it's not going to hurt you all that bad. But hey, if you don't want to wear a mask, don't wear a mask. I think, you know, what we've seen out, but with the data in the wild with people is that, you know, they really do, they really, really will do what's right, they really will have other people's best interests in it. And in return their own best interest rate. Nobody wants to get sick. Mm hmm. Hello. Good day, my back.